Digest 2014-11-26

<body>Welcome to the Federated Wiki video chat on November 26, 2014.<br><br>On today&#x27;s call:<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Ward (initially having problems getting audio)</li><li>David</li><li>Paul</li><li>Jack</li><li>Jeff Miller</li><li>Jayasimhan Mesilamani</li><li>Mauricio Lopez</li></ul><br>Jack, planning to install fed wiki on Ubuntu<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Having problems with node.js<ul class="bullet"><li>Not related to FedWiki -- an issue with storing an object in ElasticSearch but having one field not return on later fetch</li></ul></li><li>Planning to &quot;federate&quot; FedWiki in my project which is at <a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;topicquests&#x2e;org&#x3a;3000&#x2F;">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.topicquests.org:3000&#x2F;</a></li></ul><br>Can now reuse Google Hangout URLs<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Now have the ability to throw people off</li></ul><br>Paul discovered some limitations of our wiki farm machinery, while working on a Docker<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Docker issues, seem to be not having install npm on server</li><li>So, was installed on Docker image, but without npm installed</li><li>Needed to get CouchDB and Redis running in Docker</li><li>Now seeing same pages in each site inside the farm</li></ul><br>Usually end up with a data store on some PaaS, and they want you to use it<br><ul class="bullet"><li>And they don&#x27;t want you to use wildcards, as they use it for their business</li><li>In the queue, first time observed, in testing</li><li>No one has comments on database stores in a while</li></ul><br>Have regular releases of server side, now<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Had neglected for a while</li></ul><br>Nick and Ward, last weekend, worked on problem on having extra ports for farm<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Wiki would run, pull</li><li>Had to tell which ports</li><li>But then when people were talking about having thousands of students in a MOOC, had to check to make sure wouldn&#x27;t run out of port</li><li>Now, don&#x27;t have to worry, upped ports by factor of 10 in a farm</li><li>If anyone visited any site, would allocate port, but didn&#x27;t deallocate, now fixed</li><li>Still queued up for next release</li></ul><br>Had found some unexpected errors from the server, if the edits get out of order, if you do them too fast<br><ul class="bullet"><li>A problem with distributed systems</li><li>Need to send error messages, to client, which will then switch to local mode</li><li>If you&#x27;re not logged in, then journal won&#x27;t record</li></ul><br>Put into a hover?<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Shows up, but without colour</li></ul><br>Enough traffic to fed.wiki.org, which is a single-threaded server<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Second response time, may time out</li><li>Client works okay, after the traffic burst is over</li><li>A crazy way to run a site, but otherwise need to work out better error recovery</li></ul><br>Wonder how this might affect Mike Caulfield<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Looking at node&#x27;s threading abilities</li><li>Go through the network stack twice, a honest redirect</li><li>Now handle through the top level loop of server</li><li>If get some good error messages, then could find out what&#x27;s really going on</li></ul><br>Mike Caulfield talked up fed wiki at conference last week<br><ul class="bullet"><li>People are wondering if it&#x27;s ready for prime time</li><li>Some students had trouble</li><li>Mike won&#x27;t step back, because feels fed wiki is a step ahead of anything else on Internet for sharing</li></ul><br>We don&#x27;t do much logging, yet, could give more insight if we had them<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Could turn on file mode</li><li>Used to have a modest file logging model</li><li>Changed from Express 3 to Express 4</li><li>Add wiki farm site name to log entries</li><li>Logging uses expressjs&#x2F;morgan - <a href="https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;github&#x2e;com&#x2F;expressjs&#x2F;morgan">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;expressjs&#x2F;morgan</a></li></ul><br>Problem with adding log files, is they fill up, creating a maintenance issue<br><br>Cross-origin resource sharing, so all of the wiki pages are all in the same address space<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Don&#x27;t write back to all wikis, just the one you&#x27;re logged into</li><li>Creative Commons Attribution Sharealike</li></ul><br>In living systems, competition is good<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Pages competing to survive</li></ul><br>Ward presenting:&nbsp; was writing about Time Measurement this morning<br><ul class="bullet"><li>On Local Changes (when not logged in), can delete pages</li><li>Narrow FedWiki pages aimed at looking good on mobile browsers</li><li>Colored corner page flag acts as a label for which wiki was the source of a particular page version</li><li>Federation shares the view across multiple wikis&#x27; pages for Recent Changes, etc., and tracks history including the source site.</li></ul><br>Can I collaborate with just two people and not others?<br><ul class="bullet"><li>No wiki spam unless you fork someone on to your site</li></ul><br>Change the way that search is done, or make wiki farms the default way of installing?<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Do both?</li><li>Push problems onto the federation, just to see what it&#x27;s like</li><li>Michael Mehaffy has 4 or 5 sites, but he doesn&#x27;t make them at the drop of a hat</li><li>Ward has made 40 sites, and has forgotten some of them</li><li>Mike Caulfield has multiple sites, with different top level domains</li><li>The whole idea of federation is hard to grasp, so maybe the way that we start of is with a farm</li><li>Setting up a farm is harder, because have to do something with domain names, or wildcard</li><li>If you do wildcard, they anyone could start up a site on your domain</li></ul><br>Let&#x27;s make Jay a web site<br><ul class="bullet"><li>jay.fed.wiki.org is already used</li><li>jayasimhan.fed.wiki.org, then he can claim with an OpenID (e.g. with Yahoo)</li><li>Until claimed, can still write on site (where Google isn&#x27;t working any more)</li><li>Welcome visitors as the only standard page</li></ul><br>If make it so can&#x27;t create a wildcard unless already logged in, would that give control?<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Yes</li><li>Haven&#x27;t worked through these use cases</li><li>Had thought of use case where we sign in with e-mail, where host a farm, and the only acceptable addresses would be from a single company domain</li><li>Paul had parked that in pull request</li><li>Do at site level, rather than wiki level</li></ul><br>Could we send e-mails to a wiki, and save them (like Evernote)<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Did this on original wiki, but there&#x27;s so much abuse of e-mail systems, that they&#x27;re tricky</li><li>It&#x27;s possible</li><li>Federation only relies on ability to serve up JSON file</li><li>Serve up Javascript that works with this site</li></ul><br>It&#x27;s like we&#x27;re sharing a lot of files, but we each have our own web editor<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Have become site editor, but not doing backups, so not web hosting</li><li>Dream:&nbsp; could have this built into everyone&#x27;s router, facing the Internet, with privileges from the home</li><li>Could do on DD-WRT, when we figure out how to make it simple</li></ul><br>Ward gave a talk on Javascript Jabber<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Technical talk, pushing boundaries</li><li><a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;devchat&#x2e;tv&#x2F;js&#x2d;jabber&#x2F;picks">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;devchat.tv&#x2F;js-jabber&#x2F;picks</a></li></ul><br>How to encourage people to write pages with their name, and their projects, as entry points<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Have sites.wiki.org on the Welcome Visitors page?</li></ul><br>A capability to launch pages on the neighbourhood, which cluttered the Recent Pages<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Have to hack to the Welcome Visitors page, which espouses to be the original</li></ul><br>Editing pages to get defaults?<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Edit on a different server, then copy</li></ul><br>Reference to sites.wiki.org, could then beef up the description, more explanatory, e.g. how to find a corner of the federation<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Should ask Mike to run a sites.hapgood.us?</li><li>Right now, sites is manually edited</li></ul><br>Could say:&nbsp; if you edited Welcome Visitors, and you were logged into that site, it would go and change (where?)<br><ul class="bullet"><li>Have a notion of default pages, they don&#x27;t have to be there, they could be in plugin pages, but they predate the plugin pages</li><li>If don&#x27;t have plugins working, it&#x27;s nice to have at least something working</li></ul><br><br>-- Transcript from Google Hangout (sidebar) --<br><br><strong>me</strong><br>12:59<br>I can&#x27;t hear you<br>Can you hear me?<br><br><strong>Ward Cunningham</strong><br>12:59<br>I;m off mute.<br>speaker turned down?<br>David Ing joined group chat.<br>Paul Rodwell joined group chat.<br><br><strong>Ward Cunningham</strong><br>13:00<br>paul, can you hear me?<br>David Ing left group chat.<br>Jack Park joined group chat.<br>Ward Cunningham left group chat.<br>Ward Cunningham joined group chat.<br><br><strong>Ward Cunningham</strong><br>13:02<br>I&#x27;m checking preferences<br>I&#x27;m going to reboot my computer.<br>Jeff Miller joined group chat.<br>Ward Cunningham left group chat.<br><br><strong>me</strong><br>13:04<br>I&#x27;ve created an Etherpad at <a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;pad&#x2e;s2t&#x2e;org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014&#x2d;11&#x2d;26">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pad.s2t.org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014-11-26</a><br>Ward Cunningham joined group chat.<br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:05<br>yes!<br><br><strong>me</strong><br>13:08<br>I&#x27;ve created an Etherpad at <a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;pad&#x2e;s2t&#x2e;org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014&#x2d;11&#x2d;26">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pad.s2t.org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014-11-26</a><br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:09<br>Ward: Paul found issues with wikifarm on docker<br>Paul: issue of npm install on host machine; couch and redis on docker.<br>Ward: issue of wildcard for farms on other platforms which want to use the wildcard for their purpose<br>Ward: extra ports for farm; collision among multiple servers; issues of MOOC (thousands) in FW farm<br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:13<br><br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:14<br>Ward: that issue will be straightened out in next release -- running out of ports<br>Ward: issue of rapid edits getting error messages; now records error messages in journal<br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:15<br>Maybe hinting of local&#x2F;networked state?<br>(thinking of Cooper&#x27;s background affordances)<br>Jayasimhan Masilamani joined group chat.<br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:18<br>Crazy but robust?<br><br><strong>me</strong><br>13:22<br>I&#x27;ve created an Etherpad at <a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;pad&#x2e;s2t&#x2e;org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014&#x2d;11&#x2d;26">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pad.s2t.org&#x2F;p&#x2F;2014-11-26</a><br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:22<br>(add site-within-wikifarm designator as part of error logging)<br>This is the first I&#x27;ve actually understood that the flag color denotes the site.<br>(I thought it might be age&#x2F;history or something).<br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:37<br>David: installing multiple wikis with npm?<br>David: install wiki farm as default?<br>Ward: most important thing is doing search right.<br>Ward: rather than solve problem usual way, we ask: is this a federation problem? we push things to federation to see what happens<br>Ward: I make lots of sites and forget where they are; Mike Caulfield uses different sites for different things, including different domains.<br>Ward: whole thing of federation is pretty hard to grasp: default is start with a wiki, then when it&#x27;s crowded, think about a farm. Farms difficult due to domain names or wildcards -- wide open for others to make sites on your site.<br>Ward: need process to control wildcard use<br><br><strong>Jeff Miller</strong><br>13:41<br>Getting paged locally, have to duck out.<br>Thanks, I learned some things today!<br>Jeff Miller left group chat.<br><br><strong>Jayasimhan Masilamani</strong><br>13:42<br>jayasimhan<br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:43<br>Put that name in front of fed.wiki.org, then claim it with openid or yahoo login<br>Open question: would using wildcard farm creation behind authentication -- that is, only logged in ppl can use wild card control it?<br>Ward: that could work; haven&#x27;t worked on use cases.<br>Ward: thinking about signing in with email - controlling which emails count.<br><br><strong>Jayasimhan Masilamani</strong><br>13:49<br>Status: Away on a call<br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:49<br>Ward: sent emails to original wiki; touchy because different email systems might be fussy.<br>Ward: federation only depends on ability to serve JSON files. Javascript is just a vehicle.<br>Ward: by running your own site, have lots of power. We are just sharing files with our own editors.<br>Mauricio Lopez joined group chat.<br><br><strong>Mauricio Lopez</strong><br>13:52<br>was just listening to javascript jabber<br>hi, no<br>yea I was in the middle of it and found the github project and that lead me here.<br>thanks<br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:53<br>Where is that github repo?<br><br><strong>Mauricio Lopez</strong><br>13:54<br><a href="https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;github&#x2e;com&#x2F;WardCunningham&#x2F;Smallest&#x2d;Federated&#x2d;Wiki">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;WardCunningham&#x2F;Smallest-Federated-Wiki</a><br><br><strong>Ward Cunningham</strong><br>13:54<br><a href="https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;github&#x2e;com&#x2F;fedwiki">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;fedwiki</a><br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:55<br>Oh! context issue. I assumed &quot;javascript jabber&quot; had a repo.<br><br><strong>Paul Rodwell</strong><br>13:55<br>the link Ward posted goes to the more recent Node version<br><br><strong>Jack Park</strong><br>13:55<br><a href="http&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;devchat&#x2e;tv&#x2F;js&#x2d;jabber&#x2F;picks">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;devchat.tv&#x2F;js-jabber&#x2F;picks</a><br><br><strong>Mauricio Lopez</strong><br>14:04<br>thanks<br>have a good day<br>Jayasimhan Masilamani left group chat.<br>Ward Cunningham left group chat.<br>Paul Rodwell left group chat.<br><br><br></body>